Feeling Squeezed? Caring for a Parent with Dementia while Raising Your Young Family

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Zita: What's it like to be the caregiver for elderly family members when raising a young family of your own? It's not easy. My guest is a health care journalist who writes about caregiving issues for national publications.

He also knows what it's like to be a caregiver, sandwiched between two generations. His name is Paul Wynn. Stay tuned.

You're listening to My Spouse Has Dementia, a podcast that uses personal stories, occasional interviews, and simple rituals to help caregiving spouses. I'm Zita Christian, writer, lifecycle celebrant, widow. My husband had Alzheimer's.

Paul Wynn, thank you very, very much for being on the podcast.

Paul: Oh, my pleasure. It's great to be here, Zita.

Zita: You have a personal story in this new, relatively new anthology. And the anthology is called The Caregiver's Advocate, A Complete Guide to Support and Resources, Volume 2.

And it is edited by Debbie DeMoss Compton, a woman I want to get to know at some point here in the future. What I want to talk about today, though, is your part in that anthology.

So of those 20, I think there are 22 professionals who have stories in this anthology, and they all have caregiving experience, there are people with legal, financial, self-care experience, people who counsel others on grief, and so much more.

What is your story?

Paul: Well, you mentioned the book, The Caregiver's Advocate Volume 2, and the editor, Debbie DeMoss Compton, reached out to a number of folks in the caregiving community, and we got connected, and we started talking about a chapter for the book, and I

said, you know, I'd really like to write about my experience as a sandwich generation caregiver. And she was like, oh my gosh, I would love to include that because that's an area that we really haven't focused on over the years.

And so I saw that as a great opportunity to give some voice to sandwich generation caregivers. You know, there's, believe it or not, an estimated 16 million of us out there in the US.

Out of the 63 million caregivers, that's a huge portion of the community. And when you think about the sandwich generation, you know, it can be varied from so many ages, right? It could be, you could be in your 20s, 30s, 40s and older.

And yet there really are not a lot of resources out there specifically for the sandwich generation.

And so it was really important to me to really focus on that community that I think has been sort of overlooked and underserved with resources and information.

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And so my story is with my mom and my uncle, who both were diagnosed with Alzheimer's relatively close together within like about a year. My uncle, he was a priest in Connecticut. And so out of all his 13 nephews and nieces, I lived the closest.

However, I still wasn't relatively that close. I was still about two hours away from him in Nianic, Connecticut. And likewise, my mom, she was about two hours away in the different direction down in Pennsylvania.

So I was literally caught between the two of them, plus my young family at the time. I had a son, a daughter, and another baby son, all under like nine years old.

And so I was working full-time, trying to be there, be a great husband, a great dad, and also be there for my mom and my uncle. And I just was overwhelmed and stressed out.

And I just, I was just really finding it hard to figure out where to divide my time because you want to be everywhere. You want to be there when your mom's having your doctor's appointment.

You want to be there when your uncle is moving into his new assisted living community. You want to be there for your kids, you know, concert recital and soccer games. I mean, it's just, you're pulled in a million directions.

And that is the life of a sandwich generation caregiver. We feel sandwiched literally between the generations. And it's really a struggle to figure out where to focus our energy and our time.

Zita: Well, a couple of things.

If I remember correctly from reading your book, about the time that your mom and your uncle, your mom's brother, were diagnosed, that was what, maybe a year or so after your dad died?

Paul: There was a little bit of a time there. My mom and dad, they had chosen a independent cottage in a larger continuing care retirement community.

My dad, sadly, never made it into that kind of apartment living situation, but my mom lived there on her own for a number of years and was quite content, honestly.

She made new friends, she continued to be active, but around probably maybe her sixth year in that community, she started showing signs of memory loss and cognitive decline, and that's when we knew there was something wrong and we got her diagnosed,

and it really shouldn't have come as a surprise to us. It still did because her two older sisters also had different forms of dementia.

So all four of them, there was four siblings and all four of them had different types of dementia, and so my mom's memory declined really fast, and her physical abilities also dwindled rapidly.

Whereas my uncle, his physical abilities maintained fairly well. He was a little bit quieter, but his decline, like memory-wise, was really rapid, too. And he died first, sadly, and then my mom passed away about a year later.

Zita: I want to rewind the clock a little bit, because one of the things I remember in reading your story in the anthology, you spoke so beautifully.

I just pictured you as this young boy. You know, your family is, I can't remember, was at the beach or by a lake, but you were by the water. It was a vacation.

And you talked about how your mom was taking care of her mother, you know, your grandmother. And you would come inside and your mom would ask you, how was the beach?

And you would say something like, "Oh, it's not that great today," because you didn't want her to feel bad that she was missing this beautiful sunny day at the beach. And that touched me so much.

And so I wonder, that was an episode from your childhood and then you grow up. And what, when you think back on those days, what did you learn about caregiving from watching your mom taking care of her mother?

Paul: Yeah, you know, Zita, it was really remarkable. Like, when I reflect on my childhood and my family, the extended family too, like, there was so many incredible positive role models in my immediate family.

I had aunts who were so generous with their time taking care of my grandmother.

And then my mom and my other aunt, they kind of shared the caregiving responsibilities for my other grandmother, and she would spend her summers with us to give my aunt a break who, you know, she cared for her during most of the wintertime.

So, I saw firsthand what my mom was juggling as her daughter, as her caregiver, and it was a full-time job, as we all know, as caregivers. I mean, my grandmother was in a wheelchair, really limited mobility.

Her mind was still okay, it was still pretty sharp, but her physical abilities were really limited.

And so, my mom stayed with her 24-7, and I was there to help her in silly ways, just to help her with meals and just kind of give her a little bit of companionship and tell funny stories and laugh with her.

And you know, what I realize now is that my mom really was sort of the role model that I mirrored when it was my turn, you know? So, I knew sort of that road map as to what the job was and what it could look like.

And so, like, when it became my turn to be a caregiver, I just sort of defaulted to my mom's patience, her quiet strength. You know, she didn't complain. She just loved her mom so, so much that she just didn't question it.

She just, like so many caregivers, just jumped in and did what she had to do. And that's the approach I took as well.

Zita: And I'm guessing that what you referred to a couple minutes ago as the little things, like helping to fix meals and just telling stories and just spending time, those are huge. I think about the caregiving journey that I was on with my husband.

And through the whole process, I recognized that I started my own experience with caregiving when I was five and a half, six years old with my mother.

Never thought of it as caregiving until, and not even when I was caring for my husband, it was long after it was.

I'm talking to people and realizing that, oh, wait a minute, that we may well have had experiences of caregiving earlier in our life, other than what the big one is that we're going through now. But now I wonder, you have three children.

What do you think they're learning now about caregiving as they watch you caring for your mom, their grandmother, and your uncle?

Paul: Yeah, I think that my example probably did not really strike them too much, mainly because they were still so young. My oldest son at the time of my mom's death was probably about nine.

It's possible, Zita, that he might have picked up a few things here and there, but probably the two younger ones didn't.

However, we are going through a new situation with my father-in-law who was diagnosed with early Alzheimer's, and so they're now seeing how my wife and myself as her backup support system, how we are showing up to support him and their grandmom go

through that situation. And so they are getting to see that role model in a different way, obviously, but I think my oldest son especially sees that he plays a very important role in his grandfather's care.

He really, they have a really strong bond, and they turn to their oldest grandson, my son, as sort of one of their support pillars to get him through some difficult times. So he is showing up as a caregiver, whether he sees himself that way or not.

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Zita: Paul, how's your wife bearing up under all this?

I mean, she's looking at over these past, I don't know how many of those years. There's a paragraph in your story that I wanted to read, and it wasn't going to do it now, but it's an ideal segue into what I want to ask.

You wrote, there was a 10-day period that encapsulated how I was sandwiched between all those competing demands and unsure how I could do it all.

One weekend, I rented a U-Haul truck and moved my uncle's personal belongings from his home to a Catholic-run assisted living facility where he moved into a studio apartment.

The next weekend, Julia and I welcomed our third child, and I thought, oh my gosh, I mean, you're running around like crazy.

You're trying so hard helping your mom, but at this point, your uncle is in a more critical condition helping him, and now your wife, you have two small children at home, and now your wife is giving birth to your third.

And now you're telling me that your wife's dad has been diagnosed with an early form of dementia.

And I think about what this must be like for her, not so much for her as an individual, but also as your spouse, because it's like the two of you are, you're amassing this massive amount of strength that each of you have to have as an individual, but ...

Paul: Yeah, you know, that companionship piece that I talked about earlier with my grandmother, that has sort of always carried through my life in different ways, and it's shown up in various situations.

But now I've become sort of the companion to my father-in-law.

You know, when we have family get-togethers, I'm the one that's sitting with him, talking with him, laughing about different stories, keeping him engaged, you know, keeping him feeling confident and strong while he's struggling with his loss of independence

and the fact that he can't drive anymore and do so many things that he used to and loved to do. And that's the role that I've taken on while supporting my wife in the background, right? I mean, I'm at a huge advantage.

I write about caregiving. I talk to amazing people like you about caregiving. I have access to resources that most people don't have.

And so I'm constantly feeding my wife and my mother-in-law to some degree, like, hey, you know, I just learned about this. Like, maybe you should check this out.

Or, I mean, my big thing with my mother-in-law is respite care, respite care, respite care. Like, you've got to find ways to get some help for yourself and get a break from caregiving.

That is my, kind of my quiet agenda with her, that she needs to, 2026 needs to be the year where she gets, she broadens her support network beyond just me and my wife, and that she really starts to get those, you know, respect care programs, adult

programs in the community, people coming in a few days a week or whatever, just to give her a little bit of a break or, she's, you know, faced some burnout issues already, and I don't want to see that worsen. programs in the community, people coming

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Zita: Paul, I think your background as a writer for topics that deal with health care, and that's whether you're writing for AARP Magazine or Prevention Health or Next Avenue, or for US.

News and World Report, which was how I met you. Because of the work you do, because you have so much information that shows the value of support groups and being able to get that respite care, when the pressure of caregiving becomes overwhelming.

And unfortunately, a great number of those caregivers die first.

Based on the knowledge that you have from all the work that you're doing in writing about health care and writing about dementia and writing about issues that are so pertinent to people in my generation, the baby boom generation, and now also the

sandwich generation that you're part of. Do you see people having a more realistic awareness, the public having a more realistic awareness of what dementia is all about?

That it's not just, oh, my father or my grandfather can't remember how to tie his shoes or forgot his anniversary. And you and I know, we both know how much more there is to all of this.

And I'm just, I'm hoping that there's more of an awareness and therefore an acceptance. Of what, what the ravages of dementia really are. Give me some hope.

Paul: Well, I am a half glass full type of guy.

And so I am optimistic that there has been increased awareness about the importance of caregiving.

I, I do think celebrities play a huge role in that or, or, you know, more famous leaders and, and, you know, the work that Emma Hemming-Willis has been doing, talking about, you know, Bruce's, you know, journey with frontotemporal dementia.

The documentary that Bradley Cooper was behind that came out last year called Caregiving on PBS about his dad's battle with cancer. And even just recently, the New Jersey Senator Kim talked about his father's, you know, experience with Alzheimer's.

And I think all of that combined does increase the awareness of how important caregivers are, but also it starts to create more momentum, hopefully for better support systems and better policies and better awareness of the importance that caregivers

play in our general communities, because without them, our health care system would just crumble. I mean, caregivers are playing the role of doctors, nurses, therapists, everything you can imagine.

They're taking on such complex medical tasks at home. It's unbelievable. I've taught to one caregiver, I swear she runs like a ICU clinic in her house because of the care that her one son requires.

I mean, monitors and tubes and 24-7 care that she has to coordinate with her family and P caregivers. I mean, it's just unbelievable. And so I do think there's a turning point.

I don't know if it's quite at that tipping point, but I do think it's a turning point where there's greater awareness.

And I do start to see more employers starting to acknowledge the challenge that their employees are facing and they're starting to implement more flexibility into their work schedules, whether it's hybrid working or more paid time off, or just

flexibility with their PTO and vacation time. But I am optimistic that it's changing slowly but surely.

Zita: Paul, I'm glad you mentioned about employers, because one of the things that you had in your book, in fact, everybody who has a story in that anthology, there's a section where everybody gives some ideas of things that, if you're reading this and

you're in this situation, like in your case, in a sandwich generation caring, here's some things to do. And one of the things you mentioned was talk to your employer, keeping in mind that they're all different and that they are not all progressive,

and how important it is to find out what the policies are. I wonder, and maybe it's just my imagination or we're hearing about it more, I'm hearing more of early onset types of dementia, which then says to me that there will be more of a sandwich

generation in caregiving, which then says to me that there's going to be more of a need to have conversations with employers so that they understand the stress on an employee when they're trying to care for someone in an older generation, and they've

also got a younger family to be caring for. When you talk about that particular topic and you mention finding out the policies, if you could make one change and let's say in or a couple changes, but something in the legislature, the way our country

views caregiving in terms of the impact of the person in the workforce. Any kind of a suggestion that you would have?

Here it is.... Let's pretend there are all these different employers who are listening to this podcast, and you know from your own experience of what it is like to be an employee who wants to do a good job, and is dedicated to the work, and diligent, and

conscientious, and you've got your heart is being pulled also in another direction because you're equally committed to this person you love, and caring for that person, and then the ramifications for your other family members like your wife, your

children. It is not just a simple clean cut, put it in a little box kind of thing. What would you want to say to employers in general, assuming that they would listen and adopt your suggestion?

Paul: A few things come to mind.

Not only do employers need to adopt more progressive policies that are caregiver friendly and give them more opportunities to be flexible with their time and commitment, I think there needs to be a shift in culture at most of these employers.

And I think what will change some of that is when you see leaders within your companies talking about their own caregiving experiences. Because we know they have them. We know they're out there.

It's impossible that, you know, the Fortune 500 CEOs not, you know, probably half of them. I'm just estimating, right? I mean, I don't have any statistics.

But you can only imagine that probably a good half of them have some sort of caregiving experience, right? Maybe they need it in some way or another.

Maybe as a primary caregiver, a secondary caregiver, some person in their lives, a grandparent, a grip, you know, a parent, a spouse, a child, someone in their lives need extra special care. Why aren't they talking about those experiences?

Why aren't they being authentic with their own employees and sharing those stories and realizing that I'm one of you. We have policies here now that are here to support you. I'm taking, I'm going to take advantage of them and you should too.

And that's what will start to change things. You know, that's where you start to see these leaders and role models out there showing what caregiving policies really mean and how to take advantage of them.

You know, the American employees, they're so afraid of taking their vacation time, right? I mean, it's just a, it's a weird cultural thing about our society.

I don't know, you know, Europeans are not like that at all, but we are, we're so afraid that if we are away from the office for, you know, more than a week, God forbid the life is just going to end without them.

I mean, it's just, it's just a, it's a self-defeating attitude. And so we need to change that and, and give people permission to take that time off for their families when they need it.

Zita: I think that's wise. I think that it also then sends the message that I know what it's like, what you, the employee, what you're going through. And I realized that it's hard.

There's a permission that says we can talk about it. And I think that's huge.

One of the other tips that you mentioned in your story, in the anthology, you were talking about working with your siblings and about dividing the responsibilities of caregiving.

You know, some people are better at one thing, somebody else is better at something else.

And you said how important it is to do what you can, to ask for help, and especially when siblings are involved, to really talk candidly about what one person is maybe more capable of doing than somebody else is.

So you said. "Focus on what you do well." And then you had end quotes. "Whenever I visited"--and you were talking about seeing your mom in the facility-- "I would let everyone know" -- and you're talking about your siblings.

"I would pick up extra supplies and report back to your siblings about any issues or lapses in care."  As soon as I saw that, a little red flag went up, and I thought, what kind of lapses in care are you talking about?

Paul: Well, in my experience with the memory care unit, with my mom, my uncle, with other stories I've heard from countless people, I think there's a lot of people at these facilities that mean well, they have best of intentions, but most of these

facilities are understaffed, and it's only getting worse. And so I do think that whether it's a family member, a friend, a paid caregiver, and that could be like a geriatric care manager, a doula, a nurse aide, whoever that person is, they need to be

really on top of things, watching, observing, checking out the type of care that's being provided to your loved one. My mom was well cared for overall. She really was. They had a really good staff.

And this was also pre-COVID. So that was also sort of a different scenario. I think it's gotten a lot worse since those days.

But her care, there was lapses sometimes in her feeding schedule, we noticed, where they would, if mom was not feeding herself, they wouldn't really spend the time to sit there and feed her a full meal, you know?

I mean, after a while, her physical abilities declined. And so even just like the coordination of lifting a fork and bringing food to your mouth, I mean, that was not as easy as it used to be.

And so little things like that, you know, like you really have to be a hawk watching and making sure that your family member, is getting all the care they need.

And if they're not, obviously, then you got to talk to the Director of Nursing and the staff and figure out a way to get them, change that care approach and the support that they need.

And so we started to do, in our family, try to have someone there with mom during her dinner meal. That seemed to be the best time for most of us to do that. We weren't perfect.

I can't say we were there seven days a week, for sure. But we certainly attempted to be there as much as we could during dinner. And then what was also great, Zita, is, I mean, you have to build that community around you.

And we also noticed other daughters and sons who would also show up at dinnertime. And we would help each other out. And maybe they weren't there to help their mom out.

And we would sort of jump in and support them as well. And vice-versa, they would help our mom out. So, you know, you have to build that team, whatever that looks like, and figure out a way to make it work.

Because as most caregivers know, you can't be everywhere.

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Zita: No, you can't.

And I want to pick up on one of the things that you mentioned there. You had, I don't recall right now, how many siblings do you have who were involved directly or indirectly in the care for your mom?

Paul: Yeah. So I was the youngest of four. And I had two brothers who lived, you know, within like about a half hour, 40 minutes from my mom.

My sister, she was more like about an hour, a little hour plus away. And then I was two hours away. So I was the farthest away.

And I just had the youngest family at the time and just this limited ability to get there except on the weekends.

Zita: So when you talk about dividing up the work, talk to me about what some of those kinds of divisions are.

Because I think sometimes until sometimes when you're facing the real challenge, the everyday challenge of caregiving, you don't realize how many different needs there are.

Paul, I remember from my experience caring for Dick, and I didn't realize it until I was heavily into the whole experience that I needed to have a variety of different skills.

And some of them came naturally to me because of all the administrative work that I had done over the years in my life. But some were totally foreign to me.

And being able to work with an occupational or a physical therapist, coming out, like, you know, moving him this way, this muscle is going to do this, this muscle is going to do that, you want to keep his head this way, or use these kind of shoes

because you need the flexible bottom, not the hard bottom. It makes it hard for him to walk. There were so many things that I didn't know. And so I wonder, in your experience, you had three other siblings.

What were the kind of areas where you divided the responsibilities? Like, start off with you. What did you say?

I'll do this part. I'm good at this.

Paul: Yeah, my primary contribution was really making sure that I was involved with her, the medical and clinical decision making, because of my background as a health care writer.

I was most familiar with the types of medications that were available at the time, the diagnoses, the therapeutic care. And that really was critical because I was able to sometimes be there for doctor's appointments.

And if not, also talk to the doctors or the nursing staff to understand what the concern was, what the issues were, what the options were. And then, you know, I'm also great at communicating because of being a writer.

So I would then like summarize all that stuff and like, you know, easy to understand ways, you know, and translate that for the rest of my family, who nobody else worked in the medical field like I did.

And so that was sort of my role to convert all that complex medical stuff into easier sound bites, easy to understand information so that we could, you know, make decisions together as to how we would move forward with some of her care decisions.

My one brother, he was excellent at the companionship piece. He was there, he lived closer to my mom, which was helpful, but he was also just a gentle soul.

And he would just literally just spend time with mom, just sitting with her, whether it was in a room, in the, you know, the open area, wherever it was, trying to find ways to interact with her and keep her happy.

And, you know, just, you know, just put a smile on her face every time my brother would show up.

And so, you know, my sister, my other brother, they got more involved with the finances, paying the bills, making sure all the money was well managed, you know, for the nursing home, for all of her health care needs, taxes, all of that stuff, you

know, and somebody had to do it. So they took on a lot of those roles. So we worked well together, I can honestly say. It was a good team effort.

Zita: It's beautiful when you see all the pieces come together like that, not only for the sake of your mom in this case, but also I think people want to make a contribution.

I think people want to know how to help. But a lot of times they don't know how to help. But when they get a glimpse of what is involved in caring for someone with dementia, my gosh, the picture is huge and it's frightening.

And being able to look at it in sections and say, you can help with this part, you can help with this part. I think that is a very positive way to go because then everybody benefits.

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Zita: There was one other area, oh, two, one, you talked about the importance of using technology like Zoom and FaceTime and like, well, like we're doing this now.

There was one thing specifically that you talked about in your book, and I've heard it said from other people in the caregiving situation.

Once they have accepted, really, really accepted the reality of a dementia diagnosis, and you said how important it is to savor the moments, that this caregiving journey is not going to last forever.

In fact, your words were,"It helps to remember that this caregiving season is a chapter in your life, not your entire life." Paul, there's so much in that. There's the obvious of recognizing that, yes, this moment is not going to last forever.

There's also, there's almost like a layer underneath it, that is about, that acknowledges that sometimes, depending on the situation, if somebody does not have siblings, if somebody does not have any kind of support system, there is no technology

where they can be part of even an online support group. That moment when a caregiver wishes this could be over, not necessarily wishing that a loved one dies, but wishing that the caregiving stress and burden is over.

That's a hard thing for people to acknowledge sometimes. And yet, that is what is embedded in that statement of, remember that this caregiving season is a chapter in your life. It's not your entire life.

And thinking about it that way, I think it just lends so much more energy to saying, and I want to do this chapter that I'm in now, and want to be proud of it when it's over. I want to know that I did the best I could. Is that how you saw it?

Paul: That's my advice for other caregivers who are either going through it now or maybe in the future, to think of their caregiving experience as not as much of a burden but as a blessing.

Because I think there's a lot of negativity around caregiving. And in some ways, I know it's tough. We've all been there.

You've been there. I've been there. Millions and millions of people have gone down this journey.

And we all know it's hard. But there's also just so many beautiful moments in that caregiving experience. And don't lose sight of them.

Don't forget about them and hold on to them. Maybe journaling is something that you're into. I'm a writer, so I love to write.

And that was keeping notes and memories came naturally to me. But that was the fun of writing this chapter, bringing back all those memories of my mom being a caregiver, and then us switching roles, and then me becoming her caregiver.

You know, like, it brought back so many wonderful, positive memories. And I want to relay that to other caregivers. And we all know it's tough.

And sometimes it feels like it's going to last forever. And I get that. I truly do.

But when you look at the totality of your life, you'll realize, hopefully, at some point, you'll be like, that was, you know, that was a really incredible experience and moment, and I don't want to forget that.

And I want to be proud of those, that time and those years I dedicated, you know, and was selfless and did the best I can. And I think, you know, caregivers, you know, fall into that guilty consciousness.

And try not to try, try to try to be positive about how hard you are to what you're doing and the commitment and dedication that you've had to your loved one.

Hold on to that, because I think that's at the end of the day, that's what you'll be remembered for.

And those are the memories that you'll want to hold on to that will bring you comfort.

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Zita: Paul, I just have one more question, and it ties back to something you talked about just a minute ago, when you were talking about your mom being in a memory facility and how you and your siblings would go, and you realized how many other people who

had a loved one in the facility, they would come in and stay with their loved one through mealtimes, that that would be something they would help with, and that eventually they might help another person. Let's say you were able to help not only your

mom, but another person at the table, and vice versa. Paul, I know that your background as a journalist writing in the field of health care has brought you to organizations, big organizations, like the American Cancer Society, Alzheimer's Disease

International, the Michael J. Fox Parkinson's Foundation. And at the same time, I also know that you've done a lot of work for many small grassroots organizations that are founded and led by volunteers. I look at all of this.

I see this progression. I see the difference between the great big giants and the small ones. I think both are necessary, and I think there's a natural progression in both.

My guess is that, well, none of these organizations started as something huge, started as something small, where somebody had an idea or there was a need, and somebody was trying to fulfill it, and then little by little, the organization grows.

I get that. What I'm wondering now, is there more of a recognition these days that the caregiver is part of that whole picture? Because people are living longer, and there are more of us right now.

So, do you see that awareness of the factoring in the caregiver into an organization that is devoted to helping people with Parkinson's or with cancer or with dementia? Do you see them also acknowledging now the importance of the caregiver?

Am I too optimistic?

Paul: I share your optimism.

I do believe that whether it's large organizations or smaller grassroots patient organizations, that there is a greater acknowledgement of the important role that caregivers play in their patients and family members' care needs.

And I think you're seeing that show up in different ways. At a lot of these patient conferences, you're now seeing sessions and tracks that are specifically for caregivers. Caregivers are on the panel, discussions, speaking on their behalf.

You're starting to see more support groups, specifically for caregivers. And you're starting to see a huge amount of caregiving groups pop up over the past few years.

You know, whether it's the National Alliance for Caregivers, Family Caregiving Group, Well Spouse Association. There's so many specific groups now dedicated to caregivers that weren't around years ago.

And I think that's made a huge difference on putting caregivers at the center of support needs.

Zita: Oh, that's so encouraging. I'm so grateful to hear that. It makes me feel a little more optimistic about where we're headed.

I want to let people know that your book, the anthology, is available, The Caregiver's Advocate, Volume 2, I'm assuming, available online wherever books are sold. Is that correct statement?

Paul: The Caregiver's Advocate, Volume 2 is available on Amazon. It's actually a best seller on Amazon and has won other awards. So it is very exciting to see it getting out there to the community.

And if people want to get in touch with you, your website, I'm assuming simply paulwynn.com.

You know, a dear friend of mine, Victoria Burdick, she's a retired hospice chaplain.

I remember one day at lunch, there were a group of us who were all wedding and funeral officiants, and we were talking about ceremonies, and a question had come up about doing something that was kind of challenging in a particular situation.

And I remember she just looked over and she said, "Between now and dead, you've got a purpose, don't be timid." I remember I thought, yes, yes, yes, she's absolutely right.

And I think that's what we're doing here is as caregivers, but as also as people who are talking about it, publishing books about it, doing a podcast about it. It's like, don't be timid, we've got to get the word out.

We have to share this information. So Paul, thank you, thank you for being part of all of this effort to make change, to make very good positive change. We are not being timid.

Paul: Well, thanks for having me, Zita.  I hope I can come back sometime and continue our conversation.

Zita:  Paul, absolutely, I would love to have you back. There's so many more things that I want to talk with you about. And right now, I want to tell the listening audience, I say this all the time and I mean it sincerely.

When I say to you, take good care of yourself, those words aren't fluffy, they're fierce, because we need to survive. Thank you for listening all the way to the end.